The Confessions of Jesse Jagz

After years away from the bright lights of Lagos, I went seeking Jesse Jagz in his home in Jos. We share blunts, beers and confessions on Nigerian music's dark past.

Everyone I inform about my journey to Jos responded with a measure of apprehension. And the ones who could not vocalize their reservations, communicated via a shadow that instantly ran across their eyes when I told them about my impending journey to seek out Nigerian rapper, Jesse Jagz. “Stay safe o,” my best friend Lucas told me. Like many people I spoke to, he had lived his formative years in the city. And like many others I didn’t talk to, his family have had to relocate within the last decade due to myriad experiences with violence, and the resultant fear of more attacks. 

Violence has been the trademark of the news cycle from Jos. Once a bastion of local tourism, with its fantastic weather, rolling hills, and progressive population, Jos has grown a reputation for being the centre of bloodshed in middle belt Nigeria. Clashes between tribes; land grab attempts by warring bandits; marauding non-state militia leaving a trail of sorrow, tears and blood, have fostered that reputation. And my loved ones feared for me. 

“Don’t stay more than that one night. Get in, conduct your interview, and come back to me,” my lover told me, reluctant to give her blessing, but knowing I’ll still do what I want. I needed to tell this story. It was burning in my chest, and Jesse Jagz had told me via Twitter DMs to come to his home. Prior to that invitation, I had never been to the city, but I thought, “If Jesse Jagz, hip hop royalty and hometown hero could build a life of zen and serenity right in that place, I could conduct an interview, record a podcast and get the hell out in a 24-hour window, right?

---

“Joey!” Jesse Jagz is glad to see me at my hotel bar. Clad in all-black swaddling clothes, a gold chain dangling from his neck, cigarettes and his trademark weed on the table, a retinue of music business executives trailing him, he looked a happy man. He is hugging me. His eyes light up. And he’s rushing his words and checking in on how I’ve been treated so far by Milli, his enthusiastic road manager. “I’m happy you came to this town,” he says. “E don tey!”

The last time I saw Jesse Jagz in 2014, he was leaving a nightclub in Yaba, Lagos. Just like this meeting, he had a crew trailing him. His signature locks were flowing down his neck, and the DJ was blasting a hit record from his extensive discography. I was part of a group organizing celebrity-themed club parties, and he was our guest for the night. Although he largely looks unchanged from that person 8 years ago, you could tell life in Jos agreed with him. His skin is clear, the eyebags underneath his eyes are gone, and he has a spring in his step. When new people walk into the bar, they do a double take as they spot him. A group of middle-aged men sat in a distant corner of the bar drinking, inventing ways to call across the room and crack one-liner jokes with him. “Good day Sir,” Jagz walks across to say hello, genuflecting to accord respect. He is the pride of the town. And when your hometown hero bows to you in deference, your day is made.

Jesse Garba Abaga hasn’t always been a hermit. His public story is Nigerian music history. His records are part of the pop music canon. And his musical ability stands tall and is worthy of emulation. A member of the imperious Choc Boys ensemble —which once comprised M.I Abaga, Ice Prince, Jagz and Brymo — Jagz was credited with being the production genius of the house. And the root of that reputation lies not only in his famed sonic acumen, tangible proof lay in his dexterity with instruments. “Do you know how many instruments I can play?” he asks.

“Tell me.”

“Drums, percussions, bass, e-pianos, proper pianos, saxophone,” he says, impressed with himself as my eyes widened. I am also impressed. 

First signed to Chocolate City in 2010, Jesse Jagz came into the camp with a world of experience and a record of artistic dominance in northern Nigeria. Born in 1984, to a clergyman father, and a mother who was distinguished as a counsellor and faith-based musician, his life was predisposed to the arts. At 7, he was the star of the local church choir, where he trained himself on his parents’ drum kit. At 19, he already recorded an unreleased album with a Gospel music group. And when his 20th birthday rolled by, he had created a group called Eleven Thirty, performing across the region. The group disbanded in 2006, leading him to name himself Jesse Jagz and release a local hit, “Africa.” After finding success in northern Nigeria, producing for Majek Fashek, and representing Nigeria at the Sauti Za Busara Music Festival in Tanzania, he was ready for the big time.

“I think people get it twisted. Chocolate City did not make us, we made Chocolate City. There's a difference,” Jagz tells me, inching forward in his chair and into my podcast mic. After considerable time at the bar, where he’s ensured that my stomach jiggled and my head swayed from copious consumption of stout, he had moved to my hotel room. Jesse Jagz loves his beer, and all through our catch-up conversation at the bar, he’s insisted on drinking Trophy. He calls it “Peter Obi’s beer,” betraying his fondness for the popular Nigerian presidential aspirant enjoying a wave of youth support in the country. A lifelong Rastafarian, Jagz considers himself an emperor, styled as a modern-day version of his eternal hero, Haile Selassie, the former emperor of Ethiopia. When I ask about his Rastafari leanings, he breaks into a song. 

“Hail Selassie,” he chimes, his eyes glowing with excitement as he launches a tirade explaining the late emperor’s CV. “That's a new song on my album. Look out for that. Check your YouTube, please. Everybody listening, you have phones, you have data. Check. The only evidence on Earth, King — Selassie, the elect of God, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, was the last King of Africa. The last black-and-white video, no audio. You'll see Kings from England, from Scotland, bowing down to him. These niggas were riding lions. There's a history to you, oh black man who is listening. If you like, don't go and dig up your history, you are finished.” 

Jagz has a lot on his mind. It’s the first time in years that he’s submitted himself to any journalistic interview process. He often drifts off into long monologues about life and its meaning, his place in the game, his penchant for artistic excellence, and his love for the city. But top of all these, is the legacy Nigerian record label, Chocolate City, a record label where he spent 3 years of his career, and created pop classics before a tumultuous exit in 2013. While the PR narrative spun stories about him needing more control of his career, a 2013 report I published referencing insiders from the record label outlined a war of wills between the musician and the executives at the record label. “Niggas can't fuck with Jagz. I left, and until today, I'm the most feared motherfucker in Chocolate City,” he says, taking a swig of his Peter Obi beer. 

According to Jagz, Chocolate City continues to hold on to his debut album, Jag Of All Tradez, citing his financial indebtedness to the company. “I've sent them forty thousand emails. And I think as a record label, if you have an album like "Jag Of All Tradez," and you have not recouped your money, then you are fucking lazy. It's been 12 years. You are fucking lazy. Don't tell me that. "Wetin Dey" that is played every fucking day. You have not yet recouped your money? You are just fucking around. You are trying to finesse me. You are not ready for what I'm about to do to you. There's still time nau. I don't just have their time now. That's all,” he explains.

When Jesse Jagz speaks of Chocolate City, a fire enters his eyes, his fists are clenched and his voice is raised. Jagz released his debut studio album Jag of All Tradez on 21 April 2010 via the record label. The project, an instant success, included the singles "Wetin Dey,” "Pump It Up," "Jesse Swag,” "Sugar Cane Baby" and "Bend Down Low." A commercially driven pop project, it was entirely produced by him. Jagz says he was taken advantage of, as the record label did not pay him any for the production of the project. They also have not shared any royalties from exploiting the work. It hurts. Apart from the significance of the album, the lack of payment forms another core reason why he feels enraged that it has stayed ‘captive’ for 12 years. “The name, Jagz, is bigger than Chocolate City. Boom. You can't hold it forever, man. Do you get me? You can't. And I want to be fair, what the Choc Boys did for Chocolate City, they can never repay us for,” he thunders.

The last time I saw Jesse Jagz 8 years ago, he didn’t own a personal mobile phone. His calls were routed through a manager, and he didn’t care about social media or the trappings of celebrity life. And when he moved away from the public eye, choosing to abandon the bustle of Lagos for a more tranquil existence in his home town, damaging rumours trailed him within industry circles. Rumours of personal instability. Rumours of a mental breakdown due to wanton consumption of hard drugs. Rumours of mental illnesses. He calls foul on those rumours, attributing their emergence and proliferation to Chocolate City. I asked him pointedly if there were direct efforts to shut him out and ruin his career. “Not just to shut me out,” he pauses for a moment, before he blurts out, “but to fuck with the artiste…Ask Brymo. Same thing. Ask Ice Prince. We used to go for meetings where men dey knuckle up. Chocolate City. Because they are signed, so they are talking with Linda Ikeji. They are talking with Notjustok. Baba, they have fucked with how many people? Where's Cynthia Morgan? Cynthia Morgan signed away her own name.”

He continues: “Is Chocolate City going to tell me that on top the song "Wetin Dey," they have not recouped their money? Did they pay for my fucking production? Do they know how much the beat is worth? Come on, man. There's no court in the world that'd absolve them from this. I just don't have their time now. Shout-out to you. I dey come for you. Boss, Audu is my brother. If he holds it, my daughter go catch him own pikin for one alleyway one day go beat them. What are you talking about? You know who you dey touch? She go beat shege comot for your body.” 

Beyond Chocolate City, Jesse Jagz carried on. His two “Jagz Nation” series has spawned two critically acclaimed albums, building him a cult following of people who believe he’s a hip hop emperor. It’s in keeping with how he sees himself in the world. When his associate hands me printed posters as souvenirs, Jagz signs his name with the prefix, “Emperor.” Haile Selassie might be gone from this world, but his spirit clearly lives on.

After nearly 4 hours of spirited conversation where we share blunts, beers and stories, it was time to go. The next morning, Jesse Jagz sends someone over for one last smoke and some hospitality in his home. We drive up a hill and into a picturesque home where a drum kit occupies most of the living room. It’s a house with historical significance, having been built by the British during the colonial era to protect an important government official. We’re regularly interrupted by three dogs seeking to join in the action, while his wife, a soft-spoken lecturer at the University of Jos offers us slices of red velvet cake as part of her birthday celebration.

Jesse Jagz tells me he is in a good place. Seating on his hilltop, he says there are few things he wants in life because he has all he needs. There’s a Def Jam deal in his bag, engineered by music exec and celebrity A&R, Larry Gaaga. He’s putting the final touches to a new album (Family Tree) and has plans for another onslaught on the global music scene. His daughter, now a teenager, is graduating from school. What more could he ask for? 

We share a final hug, the kind you give to an old friend, with a promise to “do this again and to link up.”  As my car pulls out of the compound, I see him in the rearview mirror, waving me off. An emperor at the top of his hill. 

This interview has been slightly edited for clarity. 

Thank you for welcoming me to your city.

Haba, Joey. It's not my city nau. There's a governor nau.

I know, but you are the people's governor.

Wow. Thank you, Joey. Coming from you, that's a lot. 

But that's what it is. Coming into this town, doing my research, and I spent some time with you earlier today, what I noticed is that people defer to you in this city. People do double takes when they see you. It's your city, man.

This is where I was born nau. This is the home of the Choc Boys. And I think people get it twisted. Chocolate City did not make us, we made Chocolate City. There's a difference.

The argument people would make is while you brought the talent, they brought the funding. 

They didn't bring any funding and I'll give you facts. 

Why would you say that? Hit me, please.

What's a record deal? What are the three major functions of a record label when an artist is signed? An artist who can produce his music too. What is their function?

A record label is to fund the music, publish the music.

All these discussions is just for one of my albums, "Jag Of All Tradez."

That's the only album you have with them?

Yes. All my sessions, features, four years I put in to make the album, not one naira was paid, not one studio session was paid for.

So, you are telling me now that "Jag of all Tradez," your record label — the people you were signed to, the people that were supposed to exploit this music that you were making…

I don't like the word "exploit". That already means there's some shady shit going on. 

But the music industry is shady.

Yeah. Go ahead. 

The people who were supposed to exploit your talent and your art, they had no tangible financial investment in the creation of this music? 

Joey, let me be real with you. Artistes are some of the stupidest motherfuckers on Earth. Because you can make music, you think you are Superman, and they bring the contract, and you throw all of that away for fame. So, they got us, man. We had no fucking lawyers. Audu was our lawyer. 

No way. That's the easiest mistake to make. 

The head of the record label was the lawyer who negotiated our contracts on promise. We were Jos boys, nigga. We were just coming out of Baptist High, we were in Jos, man. "You want to go to Lagos?" So, we weren't paid nothing. 

Nothing?

I wasn't paid for "Oleku.” One naira. Even Ice Prince, and he'll testify this to you. The only money Ice Prince got, he might shoot me for this, was off his performances. There was no royalties. This was 2008/2009. The internet wasn't this internet. We were just opening Twitter then. 

Did you guys at any point smell that this was not right? To have a lawyer who was also the label's CEO negotiate your contract? It's like playing chess with yourself.

It's like trying to marry a woman that you already know from the beginning, but the human mind argues with itself, so you see the signs. Boom, boom, boom. But something still tells you, "Oh, do you know what? You need to be loyal," because you are going to hear that speech. "Oh, you need to be loyal. You need to stick to one thing. Get it done through." And thank God the first album did succeed. You know what I mean? However, what the record label was supposed to do was 18 songs, not one production was paid for. 

So, you bore the cost yourself?

The only money I made was from performances. 

How did you fund this at that point? You were young. How were you funding it as an artist? 

I mean, if you are an artist and you were at that age, there was money nau. It's Lagos nau, so there's money. You are doing 20 shows a week. Some of these young acts know what I mean. You are everywhere. Private parties and all. But you are only earning from your performances and the record label still has a cut from the performances. 

So, you are not making from the music. You are making money because you are an artist.

Because you are a celebrity, not an artist. It's because you are popular. So, you have to keep pushing that popularity, and eventually, you just get used to that. What the real power is, as soon as I give you the album, I have brought 50% of the business. That's the real secret about this. 

This is such a revelation. I wouldn't have thought that. 

And it's happening to the biggest of your artists right now. Anybody signed to Universal, Sony or Warner, read your history. 

I had your label mate, Brymo, one time on the podcast. 

Shout out to Brymo. That's a cold motherfucker.

He's a very interesting person. I think Brymo knows a lot of things that the world should know.

He's one of the coldest musicians I've met. 

I spoke with Brymo and he spoke about his exit of Chocolate City, how he had to go through multiple layers of legal tussles to be able to extricate himself from their grip. For you, how was your exit? 

Niggas can't fuck with Jagz. I left, and until today, I'm the most feared motherfucker in Chocolate City. 

But they are holding your album "Jag Of All Tradez."

Boss, I just don't have that energy now. They should hold it nau. Is it their property? 

Why are they holding your album? What do you think? Tell me about that situation.

I've sent them forty thousand emails. And I think as a record label, if you have an album like "Jag Of All Tradez," and you have not recouped your money, then you are fucking lazy. 

Brymo said something along those lines. 

It's been 12 years. You are fucking lazy. Don't tell me that. "Wetin Dey" that is played every fucking day. You have not yet recouped your money? You are just fucking around. You are trying to finesse me. You are not ready for what I'm about to do to you. There's still time nau. I don't just have their time now. That's all. 

When you think about this album that they've held and all of that, how do you feel?

The name, Jagz, is bigger than Chocolate City. Boom. You can't hold it forever, man. Do you get me? You can't. And I want to be fair, what the Choc Boys did for Chocolate City, they can never repay us for. 

First, let's play out this story. This is really nice. So, we are in my hotel room somewhere in Jos. Beautiful city.

You like the weather?

Yes, I do. I can already feel my skin getting better. That's the thing that people in this city have, good skin. 

And shout out to Joey. Joey came all the way from Lagos to record this. 

No, it's okay. I'm following the story. That's what's most important to me, more than anything. You occupy a very important part of our culture. The work you've done, the work you do, has inspired millions of people to be able to express themselves. So, how did you join?

Let me give you the history. This is it. Chocolate City is Audu and Paul. Chocolate City started as a club in universities. Not a cult o. Because for your mind, you don dey think.

Maybe a frat house?

Yeah, in a Yankee sense. Where they just throw parties. 

A frat house.

Exactly. Then, it evolved to GAP, what they used to call Guild of Artistes and Poets in Jos. We'd just sit down at Bacardi. Poets would be there, intellectuals, musicians, sculptors, professors, and we'd just discuss as youths. Then, it evolved. First artist to be signed was Jeremiah Gyang. Shout-out to Jeremiah. He's a cold motherfucker too. 

So, it first had Jeremiah Gyang. 

*sings Jeremiah Gyang's Na Ba Ka* One of the hugest songs ever. 

That was beautiful. It was a soundtrack for all of us. We all know that record.

But then, the record label finessed him. 

In what way? How did they finesse him? How do you think they finessed him?

Boss, I studied Law but I didn't graduate from the University of Jos. The reason they call lawyers liars is… 

You guys have really good smoke in Jos. 

You like that, right? 

Yes. 

Shout-out to Conglomerate. 

We have a bunch of people here. There's Faani. 

I have one of my boys here. Shout-out to Zim Royal. He actually makes denim from marijuana. The industrial side of marijuana right now, Zimbabwe has legalised it, and they are making their own denim from it. 

Okay. I'll go check him out. We were talking about Jeremiah Gyang.

So, this is what happened. The finesse really is this. If you are signed when you are young, you are a fucking idiot. You are just excited for the world, man. It's the first time you are going to get free girls, be able to go to the club and have a bottle of champagne. So, you really don't understand, when you are young, what the fuck it is you are doing. They'll finesse you nau, Baba. I'll take you to the club and just sit down with you, and after your fourth glass, then I'll be like, "Meanwhile, this contract. I got you, man. You are my nigga. I got you. You know I'll never do you wrong." Once you put your signature, oh my God, you are fucked. 

It now changes because you sort of automatically become an employee. 

Boom. And then, they don't spend any money, Joey, on the content. The artist has his own studio. We had my own studio, I could already produce, so they didn't need to spend money on a producer even though I should have been paid for the production of my whole album. 

Woah. But you made these albums yourself, right? 

Because that's what we do, and that's how they finesse you. 

So, you are saying just because you are multi-skilled, they took that for granted. 

It's that Kanye West phenomenon. There are very few artists in Nigeria who produce their own music. Burna cannot produce, Wizzy can't produce, Davido doesn't produce his music. 

He used to produce in the past. He was once a producer. 

Come on. 

He was, though.

Let me take you to the fourth dimension. How many instruments does Asa play?

She plays her guitar. 

Do you know how many instruments I play?

Tell me, brother.

(chuckles) Drums, percussions, bass, e-pianos, proper pianos, saxophone. 

Woah. 

So, I'm saying — and no disrespect to anybody — there's a certain level of skill. 

How did you build this skill? 

Baba, it's time. That's why I'm not releasing singles every year. 

When did you start working on your understanding of music and how to navigate across all of these instruments. 

Jesus is Lord. Baba, I started playing drums at age 6. By age 9 — and confirm this from M.I — me, M.I and White Coleman, the producer of P-Square's first album, had won Best Gospel Group in Nigeria. I was age 9. I could only drum. So, I didn't ever want to have to say this. 

What did drumming teach you? 

You can't drum and your mind as a musician is not elevated. It's what they call being left-handed and right-handed. I can multitask musically. So, there are artists that just vibe. There has to be a producer, there has to be an engineer, there has to be the palsy on the side, there has to be bitches in the studio. Me, one man. I record all that myself. Shout-out to E Kelly. That was who actually taught me to produce properly. 

And when did you pick up all these other skills? When did you pick up the next set of instruments? Can you recall when you became interested in the other ones? 

Every other instrument I can play apart from bass and sax, and even bass, I'm not at where Shady Bizniz is at or like a professional bassist, however, music is a skill. If you can box, you can figure your way around kickboxing. If you have mastered one, you can apply it in anything. It's about discipline, about being able to shut what you are doing down. Stay away for two years and develop something. Spend the 10,000 hours. That's what it's about. 

And you did that? Still doing that. What did it take? How were you so disciplined? Was it because of your love for the arts or you care about music so much? Because you are considered an original. 

Boss, fuck the love. 

What did you do it for, then? 

I believe this: Many are called, few are chosen. The real work you do, nobody is going to see. My dopest verses, the world is never going to hear. That's my rehearsal. I do it first for me, and I don't call it love, I call it like there's a fifth dimension now. Many are called, few are chosen. If you are not chosen, you won't get it. You can't spend that amount of time, you can't discipline yourself, you can't sit down in one place. You won't read, you won't do anything, you'd be on your phone, you'd be in the club, you'd be following girls around, being a model everyday. 

You'd be sucked into the machine.

Self. 

Why does your alcohol seem fresher in Jos? 

It's just the weather nau. This is not even fridge-frozen. That's just how cold it is if you keep your shit up. There's a place called Pankshin that I think you need to visit when you come back. During the harmattan, if you keep a bucket of water outside on that peak in the morning, I promise you, the top of the water will be frozen. That's how cold it is. 

That's so diverse, man. So, we were talking about the 10,000 hours, as an artist…

I'm a musician. 

Apologies. As a musician, you come from the old days. 

There was no internet. 

Yes. You come from a time when artistry was about what you could do, and you had to build skill. 

It's still about that. 

Yeah, but technology showed up. Technology just filled out all the spots that you could have done yourself. 

Technology is man's answer to laziness. That's the truth. 50,000 years ago, niggas were walking from Jos to Abuja, man. Then, somebody found out, "Shit. I can tame a donkey. Fuck, let me cut down my hours." So, my point is eventually, with all this AI, there are going to be no jobs, motherfucker. This podcast you are doing, AI can run it in 15 years. 

Yes. And that's why I'll go to wherever they are creating the latest AI and I'll find that engineer and take him to Nigeria and keep him in a village to farm. Plant corn, don't go and create that will kill us. 

Baba, you go set am up, make him dey Panti forever. So, technology is going to be the eventual downfall of man on a deeper conversation. 

And so, with music, technology halted music. 

Boss, let's go here. Radio comes, boom, radio is everywhere. TV comes. You remember when children used to sit in front of TV and their seven colours and just a signal tone, and kids were just transfixed on it. The internet has killed what we call traditional and legacy media. It's killing it. People read less, but everybody is online. I have friends that there's nothing going on in their phones but they are on their phone. Just scrolling the screen. Waiting that a motherfucker will send them a text. Wasting all that time. People read less, but if you don't read, then nothing is going to imprint on your mind. If you don't read, there's nothing in your head. If you are a Christian and you haven't read the Bible top to bottom, you are an idiot. You are a fucking idiot. Same goes for every religion. The Qur'an itself says, "Seek for knowledge," even if it takes you to China.” 

Yes. Philosophy calls it sophistry. 

If you haven't searched yourself, then what are you doing? Why are you here? 

So, you created all of this skill, developed them, put in the hours, and then you started bringing them all to bare to create a record. Having all this skill, does it make it easier to make music? How does that affect your ability to make a song? 

Joey, I'm very disappointed with this question. 

I want you to tell people that don't know. I'm not asking the question for me, you are teaching people. 

Everybody listening to Jagz now, Mike Tyson is 50 what? Just go on YouTube and type Mike Tyson and look at how that nigga move. 

I watched another fight of his recently.

Boss, I never was going to say this. I'm nominated Headies Lyricist on the Roll on SDC's record from Jos. Boom. Other niggas are nominated for their records, I'm nominated for a feature on SDC's record, who I respect. Shout-out to SDC. Boom. You know what I mean? 

So, you are getting into this legacy prestigious list just from being a guest on another person's song. 

That's not a legacy prestigious list. 

No, but Headies is a legacy platform for our music. 

Shout-out to the Headies. 

So, whatever they do, I always like to color it like this. 

Now, that's why I'm in Jos, to show Jos artists that I've been sitting here. 

We'll get to Jos. I want to talk about Jos, about your existence here. But what I'm interested in, and for Afrobeats Intelligence, it's about stories and learning. So, when I ask questions like, "How does building all this skill help you make better music?" It's for all the artists listening.

Okay. Let me actually answer this. Let me explain what I meant by watch Mike Tyson. We are in the age of the internet, so every artist listen, Google Mike Tyson practising this year, the older you get, the faster you should become, the wiser you should be. All of life is experience, so experience. Don't be at a show recording from your phone for other people to watch where you were present. Watch the show. All these shows we are doing, Baba, our fans come to shows now and are watching our shows from their phones. 

Yeah. That takes away from the joy. 

And they are looking at how many people are watching from their own platforms on our events. They are not watching us, they are not listening to us. They are not silent. When you actually want to pass across a message, they are not quiet. They are not present anymore. 

When that happens, do you think it takes away from the moment? For you as a performer, seeing that happen, do you think it takes away from the moment? 

For what music business is, it doesn't. It looks pretty. 

And then, it also broadcasts what is happening to more people. 

Do you know when the people at the show go and watch the show?

At home. 

(chuckles) The morning after the club. 

But in a sense, they are promoting you. 

No. They are promoting themselves. 

Yes, by amplifying you. 

My point is this, in the last days, men will be lovers of themselves. We are now in a time that is motherfucking crazy. It is. We have to speak the truth of what is really happening. It's crazy, man. So, for me, it's that selfish thing. The greatest picture in the world is called a selfie; a picture of yourself. What the fuck? 

This your focus on self, on humanity and experiencing life, and self development, is this the reason why there's a gap between your projects? Does that explain the gap between your projects? 

I think the projects are a reflection of my life.

In what way? 

I'm a thug. I'm anti-industry. Fuck the industry. I'm independent. I own my six masters apart from "Jag of All Tradez." Shout-out to Chocolate City again. You know what I mean?

I get you, brother. You must be so proud of that. 

I'm free. So, I can say what I want to say and I'm good. It's music nau. Listen to the music. Don't just bob your head to the beat, listen and understand the game and listen to what I'm trying to tell you, not how I'm trying to just make you feel. 

You are considered an outlier. You are seen as someone who is extremely skilled, super talented and has demonstrated that at the highest level. But you are seen as a reckless. I'm telling you how people see you. You might not be that, and I'll get to the question.

Let me tell you the truth. My father was an ECWA pastor. Shame does not kill. I set out to be this, to show people that a man should be just be respected for what he does, not what he says, not what he claims to be, who he is. So, I really do not give a fuck.

You focus on what is.

I make music for me. If you don't like it, don't listen. If you like it, then listen. If you don't or do, it's music and it has been made and it'll live forever. 

What are the pros of your independence? What does it afford you? 

Freedom. 

Why is freedom so important to you? 

Is that not what we are fighting for now? Can something free be given? 

No. You have to take your freedom. 

That's the beginning of the job. That's the whole job we are doing. Look at the schools we went to, man. Nigga, they brutalised us in schools. If you went to a boarding school, you can survive in prison, anywhere in the world. 

Where did you school? 

Shout-out to Baptist High School. 

Okay. I schooled in Federal Government College, Okigwe. 

Ah. Baba, FGC. Let me not even speak about FGC. 

We suffered. 

But in our Baptist School, our principal was a white man, in the 90s. But there was black-on-black violence.

So, you were more brutalised by your brother than the foreigner. 

The foreigner is just there to maintain order. We were slaves. If a white man walks inside the room, black people begin to recalibrate inside themselves. Slangs wey no suppose dey go begin flow out. There's something that has been removed from us, boss. If Grammy does not nominate an African artist, he's not respected in Africa. We don't have our own. We don't know who we are. 

*lighter clicks* Guys, na cigar be that o, incase some of una dey try worry. Some of una wey no get job, shout-out to NDLEA. 

It's a good cigarette. So, Afrobeats To The World is happening, and we are seeing multiple people—. You can say you want more alcohol. 

Please, can I have booze? I hope it's actually Peter Obi's booze. Shout-out to that motherfucker.

You are drinking Trophy beer because of Peter Obi? 

No, I'm doing this for free. Shout-out to him. I've followed everybody, he's a brilliant motherfucker. But incase you enter Presidency, Peter, and you forget your work, I go clear your doubts for you. 

So, you are campaigning for Peter Obi. 

I'm not. I'm just saying he's a brilliant motherfucker, but he has to work when he comes in. Too many problems for English. There's work to be done, man. 

Okay, cool. Afrobeats To The World is happening, and we've seen foreigners — and I use the word 'foreigners' with all the utmost respect — because we are locals and they are foreigners. 

No. We are foreigners to them, but they don't use that word for us. They use Africans for us in Yankee. They don't say, "We are going to a foreign country." They say, "We are going to Africa.".

We are seeing people from the ends of the Earth, people across the Pacific, across the Atlantic, come down to this market, sign our artists, take the music and export it to their market, to distant places. It has given a lot of us money, I mean our industry. 

But we are selling our wealth. 

It's given us a lot of money, it's given people a chance to build careers in the music business and to be connected to a global space. It's given people more numbers. For the first time, there are people in this country…

Let's not say the first time. Fela did it. African China did it. 9ice did it. Ice Prince did it. 

For the first time in our industry, we've finally hacked a way to make money from the MP3 file itself, rather than being an artist and a celebrity.

But it is not the new kids that did it. It's an eventual product of evolution. It'd have happened anyway. Another generation will come and will do greater than this one. Another will come after and do greater than the other one. It's an eventual stream of growth and development. Everybody has to do their sweat. Other Nigerian artists are going to win nineteen Grammys.

Yes. Eventually.

It's just one still, everybody don dey menstruate. 

It's new.

I'm upset because white man know music pass black man? 

Of course not. 

Hold on, Joey. Does the Caucasian man carry rhythm inside him? So, we are relying on someone that cannot even hear natural rhythm to verify us while he's mining our wealth, our content. We don't own Google, we don't own Boomplay, we don't own Apple. What? The old slave mill is grinding slow but it's grinding still. 

All these pipelines that have been plugged into our art, all these boots on the ground connecting us to multiple places, we don't own anything in them. We are just taking money and giving them the best of ourselves. 

Baba, we don't own. All record labels in Nigeria are affiliated to international labels. Any record label that is doing well is affiliated to an international label. So, the artist is signing three deals; Universal, your record label, your management, then you. But you have to keep up that facade that everything is going good. One day, it's going to end, and your whole catalogue, elelele. Ask Brymo why he escaped, and why, since that day, he has remained by himself. Ask him. Freedom? Jesus. Being an artist is — the only equation I can give you — is like being a prostitute, and I'm not even a woman, but to be used by the whole world? When these same fans turn against an artist, you have seen what happens. 

It's brutal. 

Then, the artist will still be online tweeting at the fans. "Oh, e no pain me o." Baba, e pain you nau, e choke you. You even get that time? 

Is this why you have not signed a deal? Is this why you haven't taken advantage of this thing that's happening right now?

Shout-out to Chocolate City, y'all motherfuckers got me twice. When I come for you ehn.

How about the place of partnerships? 

No. I do a lot of partnerships. 

So, you maintain a strong level of control? 

Shout-out to Larry Gaaga. He's my peeps, Baba. Shout-out to PHP. 

Larry Gaaga is good people. He's a personal friend. Very good people.

Good people. So, being an independent artist this long, I have direct access to boardroom people. I've caught the middleman. 

So, when you mention Larry Gaaga, there's a name that goes to my head. Should I mention it? Def Jam. 

I'm good! From here. From where I'm sitting with you, I'm good, motherfucker. I'm good, nigga. 

Okay. I'll allow you make your announcement yourself.

No. Not like that. Not good like that, but I'm good. 

Let corporate lead. 

I'm good. Let corporate lead. I'm very good with him. Shout-out to Larry Gaaga. He's one of the few CEOs/businessmen/entertainers who actually put their word to back everything up. Shout-out to Clarence Peters.

So, I met Laary Gaaga in 2018 when I joined Universal. I was one of the earliest members at the company when they were setting up in Lagos here. Laary Gaaga was one of our artists, and more than anything, one thing I respect about Laary Gaaga is that he does it for the passion. He's in it because he loves music, and he has been around for so long. 

Now, let me tell you something. The way I move, and every artist is going to relate to what I'm about to say, some niggas will treat you good, some won't. Larry Gaaga is a stand-up nigga. 

He treated you well. He held you down. 

I know Lagos is a very fake place. He's a stand-up nigga. Clarence Peters is a fucking stand-up nigga. MEX is a stand-up nigga. 

Clarence Peters is very stand-up. He's one of the realest people I've met in this world. I spent time with him in his studio. 

He's a pure creative. 

His soul is so pure.

He has saved me so many times. He knows nau. When he hears this, he knows. 

Clarence Peters' soul is so pure. That's why I like him. He's one of the few remaining people with such pure souls. 

What's going in the Nigerian music industry now is niggas are selling their souls, and when I say souls, Baba, one signature will tie your whole generation forever. If you like, no free yourself. 

What I was asking is this, what do you think is best? 

This is my advice, and I tell every artist. M.I was doing music, then he signed, but when he signed, that one bullet entered inside the stratosphere. If you don't know why you are doing it, even in your mistakes, you are not going to make it out. Ice Prince did it. I did it. Brymo did it. Wizzy did it. Davido did it. Burna did it. One tiny bullet in the chamber, zaza zu. Gone, motherfuckers. So, I'm not opposed to signing, I'm saying. No artist can make it alone, of course. But if you don't know why you are doing it, and even if it turns into a problem, there's no artist that doesn't bitch about the former signings they did, but they made it out. There's a stratosphere that if your name is not inside (chuckles), boom. 

Joey, what do you think about Jos? How do you feel? 

I feel good. I feel happy. I feel like I belong here, like I'm one with the Earth. So, shout-out to Old Testament hospitality. With you, Jesse Jagz, one thing you did with how you present yourself to the world, how you navigated Earth and communicated with the people — Yes, you have always had an anti-establishment stance, you've always been very 'Power to the people', 'Think for yourself', 'Emancipate yourself', 'Do what you want', 'Free yourself from not just the power but from the things that hold you back'. 

The same things that make you will hold you one year after.

So, that's what you've always been about. How has the world reacted to you being this person?

Fuck the world. Listen, and let me say this now on radio. 

On a podcast. Afrobeats Intelligence podcast. 

Sorry, not on radio. Fuck radio. You guys are old school. You guys are a dinosaur now. (chuckles). I'm on a podcast, I can swear. Fuck you guys for banning "Redemption," banning "Sex and Scotch." 

"Redemption" was banned? 

Banned. Baba, I used to walk into radio stations. Banned. "Redemption," "Murder Dem," "Burning Bush," "Sex and Scotch." That's why a lot of my music wasn't played, because what I was talking about, they were just like, "Nah."

Some people have said worse things than you've said in the past and they get airplay on radio. There's Burna Boy's "Last Last," it's being blasted on radio. And what does it say? "I need marijuana and alcohol." 

Remove Burna Boy. Burna is a real artist. 

No, it's not a diss. 

I'm talking about the copycats. I'm talking about people — I call them culture vultures. They come around what is real and they water it down. 

They hook their tentacles into it. 

Thank you, and then, they water it down. 

So, when you were being banned as an artist then, you were pushing for yourself self-actualisation, and we didn't have as much tools as we have now to consume the music. Distribution and promotion was not decentralised. 

Universal wasn't fucking with us then. 

So, in a manner of speaking, you are saying the industry shut you out, radio shut you out by banning your records. 

Radio, and then when you leave your record label. This is the difference. After I left, Brymo left, Wizzy left, there was a sort of revolution of artists. Runtown, Vector, a lot of artists that were having problems with their record labels. I don't take claim to it. I studied the greats and I understood that unless an artist knows what his content is, he's nothing. Unless he himself knows the value of it, he's nothing. Even if the whole world tells you No, if you follow them, you don fuck up. Human beings. 

So, when you left your record label, do you think there was a concerted or contrived effort to shut you out? 

Not just to shut me out, but to fuck with the artist. 

In what way?

Emotionally. Baba, I was shut out. So, first of all, my problem with Chocolate City wasn't just that Chocolate City at this point had not an album like "Thy Nation Come." 

You were talking about being shut out, being messed with emotionally.

Ask Brymo. Same thing. Ask Ice Prince. We used to go for meetings where men dey knuckle up. 

It was heated. 

Yeah. It was getting heated. However, when I did "Thy Nation Come," they had never heard music like "Burning Bush." "What the fuck is Jagz on?"

I heard a song recently that took from Burning Bush. Do you want to hear it? 

Whose song is that?

Let me play it for you. 

I go enter the person. 

No. Don't enter this person. I love him. 

Let's go. But if I don't hear it, I'll tell you. And I steal a lot from other people's music too. 

I'll just play it for you. 

*Joey plays Victony's "Outlaw". 

Who's this, though?

I think you should work with him. His name is Victony. 

I know Victony nau.

You should work with him. I think you guys would make amazing music together.

He sounds nothing like me. That's fucking original. Sounds fucking original to me

No, I'm not saying he sounds like you. I'm saying I can hear some parts of "Burning Bush" in that. 

Ah. Nah. 

Should I play Burning Bush? Let me show you. 

Oh my God, Joey. Shout-out to Victony. 

*Joey plays Jesse Jagz's "Burning Bush". 

See that part? 

Nah. Nah. A lot of these patterns are stereotypical when you enter into genres. It's like rap patterns. "Who stole from who?" You can't tell because rap is rhythm. People like me, Burna, Damian (Marley), it's not just rap, there's rhythm, there's rhyme, there's melody to it. A lot of the patterns are stereotypical.

What's unique about your artistry is this. You are a rapper, but you are also, at heart, enlightened. You can fall into hip-hop, you can also fall into reggae. How were you able to blend both of them into one thing and make that thing pack such a strong punch to become successful? 

Many are called. Ask any successful person this. Ask Vector this. He only followed his heart, his mind, and his muscle. If you stop working, boom, you are dead. If you can't evolve, boom, you are dead. If you are not making music for another generation, boom, you are dead. When you die, you are dead, boom. All is vanity at the end of the day. 

And you did this in a way, nobody could understand it in terms of mimicry. I remember when Wizkid blew and every artist you spoke to wanted to be the next Wizkid. When Burna Boy blew as well.

And there are too many. I fear for them because there are too many mimickers around those three artists. 

But guess what you'd never hear? "I want to be like Jesse Jagz." 

No, you can't try that. Dem no born your papa. You wan die? 

So, when you started making records like "Redemption," at some point, this was what we saw. We saw Jesse Jagz at Chocolate City. Was that you? 

Yeah. I was young then. I was excited, happy to blow. My daughter was about 5 at that point. 

At what age did you have a child? 

Jesus. I was 20, I think. Nah, I can't give out my age. I was 21.

She's so grown today. 

Yeah. We spoke earlier about it. She doesn't like it at all o. She doesn't like the fame and all that. 

Shout-out to her. At Chocolate City, was that you? Those pop records that were very fluffy.

But they weren't pop. I had 18 songs. What happens in music is this, the song that blows is never the true representation of what the artist wants to say. I had songs with Eve, who has passed away, "My Brother". It was about me and M.I, me and Ice, and putting it into a context of having a brother or a family member from here who goes abroad and lives there. One day, his kids come and you find out that they cannot even talk to each other. Nobody listened to that. Nobody listened to "Sugarcane Baby." Nobody listened to the deeper songs on the album. People took out the dance, *Jagz sings "Wetin Dey", and didn't listen to the rhyme. And that time, the internet was just coming. For me, "Jagz of all Tradez" was more of a production album. I experimented. There are so many genres inside. 

You used to blow our minds about what you could do with the console, your production. 

Not used to. Nigga, if I catch you in the studio, I go break your head. 

I know you still do it. I'm looking forward to your new project, and we'll talk about that. Back then, you were like a unicorn.

Still am. To be able to find me or see me is like finding an unicorn. 

I had to come down to Jos to find you. 

At the same time, I want this to be said, Joey. I dare any African artist born on the year of 1984 to play me six albums that have that amount of content. I'm not talking about dance music for women, I'm not talking about nine songs about breasts and yansh. I'm not talking about vibe. This new era of musicians that call themselves the vibers who just come and get high and finish a song in one night. 

And give you a good time. 

What good time? 

In the moment. It's their aesthetic. 

Come on. 

Some people are vibing to it. 

Come on, nigga. 

Something else you also did during your time was being very particular about the aesthetic you gave out. First, what is your connection with — I'm trying to find the right word so I don't end up insulting a group. You were a Rastafarian. 

I am. Don't use past tenses. 

I apologise. So, you are a Rastafarian. Tell me. How did you discover Rastafarianism?

*Jagz sings "Hail Selassie". That's a new song on my album. Look out for that. Check your YouTube, please. Everybody listening, you have phones, you have data. Check. The only evidence on Earth, King — Selassie, the elect of God, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, was the last King of Africa. The last black-and-white video, no audio, you'll see Kings from England, from Scotland, bowing down to him. These niggas were riding lions. There's a history to you, oh black man who is listening. If you like, don't go and dig up your history, you are finished. 

And how did this speak to you? 

Baba, it's everything that we are. If a man does not know where he's coming from, he cannot find where he's going. Yes nau. Micheal Jackson started out as a black boy and died as an old white woman. 

That's so wrong. 

For the price of fame. Died broke. Isolated from the world. 

I like to think he was the first celebrities celebrity.

Hm. There's no celebrity that can sacrifice his life for fame. Maybe Kanye West is going through it. That level of fame that you have to cover your own face to even just walk out and see the fucking sunlight. Baba, I wan just buy my maize, sit down for road o. I just want to buy my nice plantain and fish, siddon with the good men, eat am o. I no come for problem o. 

When did you become dedicated to this way of life? What has it given you as a person?

I grew up poor. Not poor poor. You know, in Africa, you have to be real. There's poor poor, there's poor, there's one where him papa no get shishi. No, my papa na ECWA pastor, but we were poor. 

So, you weren't in the trenches trenches, but you had financial limitations? 

Yes. However, let me tell you why I'm this rebellious. Every year, we dey fast during Christmas because chow no dey. Some years, e go dey. Maybe one of my Popsy's friends go just talk, "Baba, take," because he wasn't working. Na pastor. So, me and M.I, we grew up and the only thing we had from we were young till now, na music. M.I is the only other rapper in Nigeria that is inside the stratosphere that produces his own music or has the skill to even know how to mix and master his own music. Niggas is lazy. Out of 250 million people, niggas is lazy. 

And when you follow this way of life and put it in your music, what are you trying to tell people?

That you can do it, man. You are inside the Matrix. When you sleep, you no go wake up for your dream again? So, your body dey sleep but your spirit dey awake somewhere dey waka upandan. Baba, you are inside another Matrix. If they tell you no, the universe is telling you yes. If people tell you yes, they are deceiving you. Shout-out to the politicians. 

A politician will tell you anything you need to hear. 

To him who sits on that throne, he must understand that a throne is only a King's chair and he who sits there must be sincere. Are we not all going to die? In 80 years, all human beings alive right now are going to be dead. 

In your aesthetic, you make smoking cool, even at a time when it wasn't the norm, when people were so scared of this moralist country, this hypocritical — I think we are very hypocritical here, I have no respect for that — this country that pretends to be a conservative country, and you were smoking in your videos. At some point, people said it got to you and your smoking habit fucked you over. That's what made its way to the news. 

Do you know what? You live in a materialistic society. Joey, if tomorrow you go back to Lagos and you don't have a new house in Lekki Phase II and in one of these fucking nonsense areas, Banana Island or somewhere, these same religious people who haven't read the books will come and judge you. And then, you'll sell yourself for some bullshit. Is there road to drive Bentley in Lagos? 

Not at all. There's no road in Lagos for that. 

We are a crazy people. So, are you going to follow the highway or are you going to enter inside the bush and cut your own path? And everyday, it's going to be thrown in your face. We did #EndSARS, did anything come out of it? As a collective? Did anything come out? Are we not worse off now? Is our relationship with the security people not worse off now? 

The same horrors that we protested against, they still exist to this day. 

The same musicians who were taking pictures with Hushpuppi, dem no delete am? Did anybody stand up for him? Are we not a vile and wicked people inside? Don't we see the truth and deny it as "Why? Where?" All these Peter Obi wey people dey shout, these people, ah. 

We can't trust them. We can't trust ourselves.

Shout-out to Peter Obi. Baba, the wise man enters the ghetto. Be a man of the people, don't be afraid to die. 

And work for the people. Was that planted in the media? Was that something people did to mess with you? 

Chocolate City. Because they are signed, so they are talking with Linda Ikeji. They are talking with Notjustok. Baba, they have fucked with how many people? Where's Cynthia Morgan? Cynthia Morgan signed away her own name. 

Even Kizz Daniel did the same thing. He had to change his name.

Come on. Runtown, Vector, Brymo, Ice Prince, Wizzy. 

Your most unique identifier. 

Is Chocolate City going to tell me that on top the song "Wetin Dey," they have not recouped their money? Did they pay for my fucking production? Do they know how much the beat is worth? Come on, man. There's no court in the world that'd absolve them from this. I just don't have their time now. Shout-out to you. I dey come for you. 

So, are you saying, at some point, you are going to face that situation?

Boss, Audu (Maikori) is my brother. If he holds it, my daughter go catch him own pikin for one alleyway one day go beat them. What are you talking about? You know who you dey touch? She go beat shege comot for your body. 

And how did you deal with that knowing that you are being deliberately misrepresented? How did this fuck with you? 

It didn't fuck with me. It made me stronger. 

How did you react to this misrepresentation? 

It made me stronger. 

What did you do to get past it? 

All it taught me was the artist is the most powerful person on Earth. He finds content from where it doesn't exist, like a painter, like a sculptor. It only exists as an idea first until it is made. I'm not talking about vibers. I'm talking about artists who have the gift to hear music, who can play instruments, who can sleep at night and freestyle in their dreams. That level. And then, being able to work it out everyday, spend those hours. There are levels to this. 

I have some questions for you. 

Ask me your question, brother. 

So, Joey, I remove Lagos, Abuja, Port-Harcourt, you have been around Nigeria. You have travelled. 

A lot. 

What is your advice for artists in these other states? 

In these other states? 

Yes. Unless they have to go to Lagos. Lagos is the endpoint. Look, if you go to Lagos and you are serious, you'll blow. I'm not fucking around. That's the truth. But when you go, don't—hm, make your bullet no hide for inside the chamber o. E go hold you back forever. Shoot am once. What's your advice for these other artists? 

It's about connecting to the centre. You understand that being in all of these other cities, you are far from the centre and all the tools you need, all the connections you need to be able to operate in the space is in Lagos. So, what you need to do is to build your own pipeline to that centre. You can blow in your market, you can be credible in your locality, you can have the fame and all of that, but I do believe that you have to find a way to play that game that is played in the centre. Guess what? With Afrobeats To The World, with the kind of infrastructure and structures that are being laid currently, it's easier to do that now. You want to release your music, you stay on the internet, you build your community, a very strong community. People will not ignore numbers. And then, when you build that community, you go to the people who have this access. Maybe you want to distribute, you go to the biggest distributor. Maybe you go to Universal, EMPIRE, Platoon, Orchard, all of that stuff. 

Okay. But you must have a community following you already that they can go and verify? 

Yes. Nobody will set you up. People will add fuel to your fire. 

Hm. So, you need a community. 

You need to have your own. That's what gets you into the room. Leverage, numbers. 

Shout-out to all the artists. 

Good example. Omah Lay. Omah Lay was not embraced by Apple Music or Spotify or all of these people at the start. Omah Lay's blowing was street, radio and organic. And when he proved himself and the people loved him and his numbers, na people dey go find am for those places. Those people had to scramble to be a part of his story. 

Joey, talk about structure to these kids. 

For structure, it's just something you install to make you the best of yourself. Structure can be as tiny as knowing that everyday you need to make a song. "Everyday, I need to write an article. Everyday, I need to write." Everyday, you need to make a song. Guess what that does for you? It gives you a steady supply of content and improves your creativity. The more you do, the better you become. Then, down to how you run your business, on a personal level, outlining things. "This is where I'm going to. This is how I need to get there. These are the things I need to do. How do I take advantage of the world right now and infuse it into my work?" So, you set up your content plan, you set up your rules of engagement, you make sure you are able to be the best version of yourself, you find the things that you make you work and you make sure you don't rely on inspiration. It's work. 

Vibers, make una hear o. Inspiration is not everything. If there's no discipline behind it, you cannot maximise it. 

Yes, because you always need to constantly demonstrate this talent. If you are not playing the game, you'll never win. That's what structure is: knowing what to do to make you the best version of yourself. 

Third question. To the young artists, what is self-development? And what I mean is this, I'm not talking about working and working and you now have two million followers, but when you enter studio, you no fit even know how to set up studio. 

Self-development, in terms of artistry, is just improving on your abilities. Making sure you are the sharpest, most creative, most talented, most disciplined version of yourself. So, take whatever you are creating, go to the highest levels of the art, place that thing you have created beside the things that represent the highest levels of the art, and when you look at what you have created, is there a difference? 

Now, I know how to do it, inside me. 

You do it well. 

But I want you to talk to the young artists. How do you know when you've improved? 

When you are better than yesterday. 

How do you know? 

How do I know? 

Do you sometimes record yourself to hear how you sound? 

When I bought podcast equipment, for two months straight, all I did was just record everyday. How I want to use my voice, how I need to talk, how to be comfortable with the mic. It's a motor skill, the more you do it, the better you get. Volume is everything. We are in the age of hyper-abundance, hyper-competition, hyper-connectivity.

Hyper-spirituality. 

So, that's what it is. It's just basic life. And I believe if more people can take personal responsibility for their existence, I believe we'll have a better world. 

Do you think existence is responsibility? 

Yes, it is. Nobody knows why they are here, we just appeared here. The same way wey you come out, naso I use come out. All of us get belly button, umbilical cord. Naso all of us use come out. We no know where we bin dey before we dey here. 

Oya, Joey. Back to settings. Nice one, guy. Shout-out to Afrobeats Intelligence. The CIA of music in the world. 

Thank you. I'm enjoying this so much. Also, do you know another reason why I thought you were going to do this podcast? 

Why? 

Somehow, I'm not in the best of terms with your brother. 

M? Why? What happened? 

It's just a dick-measuring contest. 

Oh my God. You know M.I is relentless. 

Yes. I know. He told me. In his words, "I dey for you." But I'm also relentless, Jesse Jagz. He'll come on the podcast. I know he'll come on the podcast. 

Oh, he will. You know him nau. He doesn't run from the fans. 

So, eventually, I'll start sending him those messages that I used to send Zlatan. 

Shout-out to M.I, man. 

Shout-out to him. I respect his work. We just have a difference of opinion. 

The only emcee that if I enter inside the room and I see him, I go say, "Shit" in my head. 

You rate his artistry that much? 

I want everybody to hear this. The only family — maybe P-Square can arguably contest this — M.I and Jargo Abaga, fuck. Goddamnit. 

At some point, when you left Chocolate City, the way it reflected on it is, people moved beyond you making a business decision and there was an element of family, that there was some sort of beef between you and M.I. I know on the come up, you guys were close. You guys were stars and you were close. Over the years, how would you analyse your relationship with M.I, and how did fame and success influence that relationship? 

Truth is this, family and business mix. 

Because in music, you are the business.

You are a spirit. You can never seperate the two things. If your friends works with you, half of your spirit is towards business, half of towards that friendship. Choose your friends wisely. I think all I'll say in all I've done is, M.I is my senior brother. However, I'm not his fucking agemate musically. Now, him go hear this, him go laugh. I no be him fucking mate. Him know. 

People think you are better. 

I'm not talking about better. 

What are you talking about then? 

There's no better. There's nothing called better. I'm saying we are the only two motherfuckers that will walk into a room, if I'm not there, M.I knows he's going to kill everybody. If I enter, even me if I see am, both of us go just stop talk say, "Do you know what? We are brothers."

Growing up, how did you people find music? How did music influence your relationship over the years? As children, were you guys rapping at each other? How was it?

Baba, we grew up in church first. M.I is super talented, goddamn. M.I is a comedian, footballer in his spare time, a rapper, a producer. I had to work hard to make it. Goddamn, my brother was M.I. I tumble him kingdom.

Was there an air of competition in-house? 

From Day 1. M.I and I used to post stuff as brothers, karate style. Bruce Lee versus Chuck Norris. At this point, we were just brothers. All the M.I and Jesse Jagz came later. We used to post stuff and have epic warfare. 

It was just Jesse and Jude. 

Then, I got him. He has his own stories, too. He'll come and lie to you now. 

What did fame do to that relationship? What did blowing up do? How did success influence that relationship?

Fame brings cockroaches around you. It brings rats. And fame, as Jay-Z said, is the greatest drug known to man. It's stronger than heroin. Power corrupts, and absolute power will corrupt absolutely. So, I hate fame. 

Did it influence your relationship negatively with M.I Abaga? 

Not negatively, no. We are brothers. M.I and I have never fought publicly. He knows now. If I catch him in Abuja, in the family house. If him catch me wey I don do something am now, ehen. I go dey duck. Na my senior brother, Baba. We have our own relationship, that's not the world's issue. We have always been brothers. If you are a man and you have a brother, you know what I'm talking about. He's your OG, your dawg, but he's also your opponent, motherfucker. You know what I mean? Shout-out to M.I, the OG.

Shout-out to him. But beyond that, beyond the bond of brotherhood, would you say the world has fairly reacted to how much you've given it?

Boss, the world can fucking suck my nuts. Deez nuts. Suck am. Now, my point is this, who knows who built the pyramids? 

No one truly knows. 

They live forever. Suck these nuts. 

So, when you release your music, you put your language and enlightenment into it, do you think people get it? You talk about Babylon, you talk about Haile Selassie. 

Boss, let me tell you the truth. For all Fela spoke about in his music and we couldn't achieve #EndSARS, these nuts. These nuts. For eternity, nobody ever listened to the message. People always followed the messenger and threw the message away. "How fly is the messenger? How short is he? How tall is he?" and left everything the motherfucker came to say. These nuts. 

Even elected the people who brutalized him to power. Obasanjo and Buhari did their thing to Fela, but still, we elected them into power, and everyday, we wake up and say, "We are free."

Shout-out to Milli. 

Milli is a great guy. Milli guided me all through the journey. He was such a supportive person. 

Are you sure you weren't scared from the airport? That road. 

I wasn't. I go towards the danger. 

Did you see cops on your way? Did they stop you?

I did. I saw policemen, but they didn't stop me. 

If they stop you, just call my name. I go jail them. 

Why are you in Jos, Jesse Jagz?

Why not? 

Why? 

Why not? I'm asking you. Should a man not live where he is born? 

It's not a crime. 

Is a man's holy land not where his fucking feet are? Shall a man not eat from where he is born? Shall a man forsake his home? Why not? What am I doing in Lagos? I went to Lagos on excursion for 10 years, and I tell all the artists in Jos, you need to go to Lagos. There's something it does a man's mind. When you are done, don't forsake your home. Go back. We all know it's one of the fakest cities o. 

Smokes and mirrors, man. 

Nigga, we all know. We are in that A-list category where we can go for everything, but we know. 

So, in your time in Lagos, what was your experience? 

My time was good. Shout-out to Eva. Shout-out to Omawumi. Special shout-out to Brymo. Kai, Baba, I have so many friends in Lagos. Shout-out to Vector. Shout-out to Wizzy. Shout-out to Olamide. Shout-out to Don Jazzy. Lagos is a nice place too. There are good people there. There are good musicians there. Shout-out to everybody. Wande Coal, Burna, AKA, Sarkodie, Stonebwoy, Shatta Wale. Shout-out to everybody, man. We are doing it in Africa now, but let us make sure we own the farm. Let's make sure we own the farm and the land. Let these companies who have eaten other people's destinies not come and deceive us. Let's have our own. Let's hold our government to work. Straight up. 

What have you seen in Jos in your time here? Don't you ever have the fear of missing out? Don't you ever fear you’re missing out on the action?

Baba, no be porn dey reach you before you even ask for am? This no be 1992. These nuts. You can be in a village. The person that created cryptocurrency, do we know who he is? Is he a real human being? 

We have no idea who Satoshi is. 

Is that not the first sign that they are fucking with you again? Was money not a scam?

Wealth transfer. 

Were banks not scams themselves? Tread this world carefully. What has been will be. There's nothing new under the fucking sun. Your time will come and it will end. Make sure you leave something worthwhile behind. Whether you dey Mars, go fuck yourself.

So, how has Jos treated you? 

Goddamn. Now, let me say this. You want me to give you the brutal fact? 

Tell me how it is, brother. I can take it. 

Boss, I wear camouflage in Jos and drive past special forces. When "Burning Bush" came out, they were in secondary school. I have evolved. My music can back me up. It's not about breasts and yansh. Soldiers Maiduguri listened to "Burning Bush" and he saves them when Boko Haram comes. I'm on a different fucking radar. 

And, in Jos, how do you think your presence has influenced the city? 

Being here is teaching these kids never to be afraid. A man should not be judged by his quantity but by his quality. A book should not be judged by its cover, it should be read. All these fucking nonsense things that they taught us. "Dress the way you want to be addressed." So, because I don't have clothes, you'll treat me differently? 

Treat me as a lesser being?

Thank you. Then, that means you are a lesser being. It's the truth. This is my home. I'm more popular than the governor of Jos. Who is the governor of Jos? What's his name? 

Jesse Jagz. The people's man. 

No, I'm serious. I'm being very serious. What's the governor's name? 

Lalong?

What's his full name? 

Simon Lalong. 

You didn't put His Excellency. How many people are following him on Twitter?

I don't know. I've never seen him on Twitter, and I'm on Twitter all the time. 

Goddamn. So, that's what I mean. I didn't even bring Ice Prince into the conversation or Yung L. Nah. 

Jos has produced a number of artists. Jos is a legacy city of art. 

Not in these recent years. 

What do you think is responsible for what happened?

The fucking government. 

Did they support in the past?

Like you say, outside of Lagos and Abuja, these other governors are street dreaming. Their states are shit. Their capital cities are nonsense. There's nothing going on there. Some of these capital cities have only three clubs popping. You'll enter and see only twenty people. Na nonsense nau, boss. Is this how we want to generate IGR for states? Since Grip Boyz, have you seen any artist in the stratosphere of music from Jos? And this is the home of tourism? Is that the artist's work? That's the fucking government's work. 

So, you are saying that art doesn't get support from the government? 

Come on. Look at how much support The Lagos Government gives art. Look at how much they put into entertainment.

A lot. Both on the table and under the table. 

Look at how much, Baba. It is entertainment that runs Lagos now, and there's a state that has the title "Home of Tourism"? That has the best weather? That the Choc Boys came from? This is a threat. 

How do you think being Jos has affected your career?

Who gives a fuck? It's my career. Tesla make him own electricity source, e work? No be wetin Elon Musk dey use now, dey drive car by himself with battery? A tree you are going to build, you are not going to sit under the shade, sir. Go and plant. The next day, don't worry about the harvest. Plant again. 

You are a father. You recently got married. Congratulations. Stop laughing. 

Jagz laughs. You dey sound like serial killer. 

Cheers to that.

Shout-out to you, Joey. 

Shout-out to you, Jesse Jagz. 

Goddamn, Joey. If we tell them the story, dem no go believe am o. 

I want to get your worldview. I want to talk about how you see the world from where you exist, the country you are in. And one of your projects comes to mind, "Royal Niger Company." What was on "Royal Niger Company?" What are you trying to tell the world? 

The same exact thing. Joey, we have been having conversations before this. Yes, we have. I'm sorry, fans. I don't mean to offend anybody, but there's too much information but human beings are dumber. 

I agree. 

Even me. That access to technology everyday, there's so much information, you cannot focus on anything, so we've forgotten. And the white man told us this, if you want to hide something from a black man, put it where? 

In the book. Put it in the pages. 

And it's playing out right now. All of us parents have kids who are addicted to the internet right now and we can't control them anymore because we too were raised a different way. We carry a virus that we have to unlearn as Africans. 

I remember in the past when you asked a normal kid, "How was your day? Tell me wetin you do today," and the child would say, "I ran after school. I played in the playground. I kicked this and that. I played football, I scored goals. I ran back home. On our way back home, I got thirsty, I opened the tap, and I drank water from the tap." 

Let me tell you a story. My own daughter is finishing from Abuja. Do you know why she left Lagos? After four years of schooling, she landed with M.I and they saw a dead body after they left the airport, and she called me herself to tell me, "Daddy, we are all traumatized. I can't do this again. I'm too young to see this. I don't have the skills to deal with this. This is too much. Let me go back to Abuja where it's not too fucking crazy." So, there's trauma that we all carry. There are things we have to unlearn to really be able to, because everything in the world is sourced from Africa. Every motherfucking thing you see in the world is gotten from Africa. Spiritual, mathematical, astrological, mental, everything, is Africa. Now, our ancestors built a pyramid. White man no wan tell we. 80% of African history is Egyptology. 

Those civilisations were crazy. 

But they got us. We are speaking their language right now. We were beaten in school not to speak ours. Let's not pass it on to our kids. 

I know you became a father at a relatively young age, and knowing that you were navigating an industry as a father, as someone responsible for someone — Your daughter is grown. She can be your homie. You can call her your best friend now and she can reason with you, that's how grown she is — did it influence how you moved? 

Yes. 

In what way? 

She's the only kid born of an artist after Fela and his kids. If she's in the club and my song comes up, there's an amount of respect that she's going to get. When they are playing your own father's song and it's about breast and yansh, and you are now older? Hehe. You are playing with music, the language of angels. Baba, you go die young nau. You go tumble yourself. Wetin Solomon tell us? Even Michael Jackson no ball out Solomon. When e finish, wetin e talk? 

It's all vanity, man. It's all for nothing. 

That's the truth. It is as real as 2 + 2 equals 4. It's going to happen in every generation. 

How do you now maintain that? Being a musician, you are the business. The man becomes commodity. 

Do you know who taught us business? The white man. That's what they call capitalism. Can art be sold? Can art be quantified? 

They have found a way to measure it, to stratify it. 

They have found a way, but is your whole economy not still rated by the dollar?

It is. 

It's who you are not rated by who the white man or what he's doing is? Oh, your podcast is not as good as Charlemagne's own. Who una slave? Dem born you for here? You carry Africa inside you? These nuts. 

So, being someone who, in many ways, has been commoditized for his gifts, how have you been able to feed the machine when you do it and also maintain the separation between family and public life? 

My daughter has no picture online. 

For real? Is it her choice or you made her do it? 

Are you a bitch, nigga? Na you go tell you at age 2 say e no wan be man again, e wan be woman, you no go slap the shit out of him? You come this life, you no know say I born you? Nigga, there is order. God is order, Satan is chaos. I'm not online insulting my seniors. As great as I think I am, I have people that I look up to. There are rooms that I walk into, I greet and prostrate in front of them. And as I do, so shall others do for me, so shall others do for them. It's real. We are African. Africa is in us. It's not outside, it's inside. It's who we are, but without that lack of sense, which is what is going on, we are so poor. Material poverty is a reflection of what is happening inside. We don't know who we are. We don't know where we come from. We worship White and Arabian gods, and then, our own, we call traditional. We don't have a sense of self. We don't tell stories again. We don't sit at night and tell stories again. 

We don't pass down tradition orally. 

We don't. 

Everybody is so interconnected yet so fragmented. 

Like you said, there's too much knowledge and no focus on what the person wants to actually know. So, we know everything but we know nothing. We know, but there's no skill. Kids that are playing soccer now are just looking at Ronaldo and looking at his body and saying, "Omo, if I can shape up, I go get endorsements." They don't know how much work it takes to play on that level.

For so long. For decades. Showing up everyday.

They don't know rejection. 

And the thrill of proving yourself and overcoming adversity, and how that shapes your character as a person. 

And you have to prove to yourself in the face of doubt. And that the only payment for that would have been the journey, that you became a better person, and you learned from the experience. That's all. So, I first came here for myself o. I no sign contract with all the fans, or even with Ubanjigi or God, in whatever language. I no sign contract with him. When I reach where I dey go, I go tear him agbada for stage. I go gerrout am. Na me be the spirit, sir. If I wasn't here, would I be Jesse Jagz? Would the world be here? Would I seen the universe? Would it exist? No, because I wouldn't be here. 

It wouldn't exist to you. 

All your motherfuckers are here for me. 

This is a central theory that guides my existence, especially with how I approach the world. Creators are ancient. They are the very lifeblood of life as it is. Everything we do now exists because someone created it. 

Were you born Muslim or Christian? 

Christian. I was born into Celestial in Port-Harcourt. 

I think you guys' Bible is at least 20% of the normal Bible nau.

We focus on the angels. I was born and baptized into Cele, so I wore white garment.

What I mean about the Celestial thing is this — let me carry you somewhere else — in Yoruba culture, they are very hard in Celestial worship on angels. In Islam, they call them djinns. Spirits that are attached to humans. The white man has Elias. Is that not the same thing? Are these stories not trying to tell us that we are living in, we call it the material world but it is the most fickle thing ever. Nobody has control over our deadway. Some other people put in 200,000 hours and they get nothing, somebody puts in 1,000 and he gets something. We've seen old men become kings and be fools. We've seen young men, very promising, become kings and be fools. Everything is vanity, boss.

Final stretch. Thank you so much for being so candid. Thank you for honoring my podcast, being open to you, and welcoming me to your city.

Baba. And we are not done tonight o. 

No, we never finish. After this one, we dey go. There's a new project coming, Jesse Jagz, "Family Tree." What is "Family Tree?" 

I'll say Jagz Nation is in a new place. I'm working with multiple companies. Shout-out to PHP, shout-out to Chris Garage, shout-out to Larry Gaaga, shout-out to Def Jam, shout-out to M.I, shout-out to Tasck, shout-out to Boomplay, shout-out to Apple Music. I'm independent, so we have the luxury of being able to negotiate with the companies themselves. 

In terms of the music, what's different? How does growth show itself in this work? 

Do you know what I really think? I really think that there's an age you get to and there's going to be a generation just below you that won't understand. Then, there's going to be another generation coming that'll get it. Then, you are going to have some OGs that will get it, and that's what evolution is. Sometimes, you have to shed your skin to start again, but that means you have to lose something. It's the laws of physics. It's the laws of chemistry. Nothing can happen without something else.

Something has to give. 

Boom. Something has to push there for something to react. And nothing is negative or positive. 

Equal and opposite reactions. The system balances itself. 

Boom. It's life. It'll eventually balance itself out, so I don't worry. 

Because there's order. 

Na you bring yourself? Why are you worrying yourself? 

In "Family Tree," did you talk about growing up? 

Hold on first. Forever black, I was carried on my mama back, no Cerelac. Trust Jagz, see I never lacked. And even though, cheddar never stacked, I've been to hell and back. It was cold and my sweater slacked. Man, I'm born where the weather sold one of the greatest stories that's ever told, but have I ever hold? I know it's gold, I know going to come back seven-fold. Many places I couldn't go, and a river overflow. This life just give and go, what you in it for? What you living for? Dead man can't rip what the living know, and this life is forever green. Sarafin, let me take you realms that you've never been. We were young and we were restless, some days a filth like we breathing as pastors. Boom. Have that, Joey. 

Thank you. I'm excited for your projects. Let me tell you why I'm excited when you want to release music? I'm excited for you because I'm addicted to originals, people who music flows within them. I feel like there are people who nature specially made to create. Some people see it and they call it talent. Some people see it and say it's a gift. 

And I know they always have that discussion football-wise, about Ronaldo and Messi. People say Ronaldo worked harder, Messi was gifted. No. 

They are both gifted. 

And they both worked hard. Talent is work and work is talent. 

So, Jos has a number of these artists. 

Now, you see Jagz Nation is international. PHP is there too, but we come from two different states in the North, and this is the education I want to give to the South. We are not all Hausa. There's 155 or 157, I don't know the correct number, tribes just here on the plateau. We are plenty, man. We are not like how the South is, like it's only Yoruba. Nah. We are not all Hausa, please. M.I and Jesse Jagz are Chamba Jukun. We have our own Kwararafa Kingdom. Google that shit, motherfucker. 

Kwararafa is a multiethnic state, a confederacy centred along the Benue River Valley, in what is today Central Nigeria (Middle Belt). It was South-West of the Borno empire and south of the Hausa State. They rose to prominence before 1500, were in conflict with their more powerful neighbors in the 17th century and reduced to a small tribute state by the 16th Century. It is believed that Kwararafa was either a confederacy conquest state led the modern Jukun people or perhaps a collective name given by their Muslim foes for a number of pagan people to the South.

Now, this is my problem with Google. Do you know how they ended the story? They don't even know what the fuck happened. 

Who are your people?

Now, I'm Egyptian, I'm Ethiopian. The word "Igbo" is an English name for the people. That's not who they call themselves. The word "Yoruba" is English. The word "Hausa" is English. That's how they get us. They are twisting the history right in our front. That's why you are educated. If I can teach you the numbers and the letters, I can change what is inside your head. 

So, you guys were invading Hausa land in the 17th Century?

*Jagz laughs. I like the way you are asking me. Boss, my point is this history is not in school. 

The fucking invaders. 

That's how we invaded Lagos, haha. Shout-out to Ice Prince. Shout-out to M.I. Shout-out to the whole conglomerate. 

So, when you guys were called The Choc Boys…

I hated it. 

Why? Wasn't that a good brand to sell? 

Nigga, we are in no fucking group. When Chocolate City sign me, I be Jesse Jagz already o. I'm not a group. 

You are not in a boy band. 

Yeah. So, that's why I left. We started going for shows where three of us had to perform together, I said, "Man, fuck this shit." That's not why I came here. 

You didn't sign up to be One Direction. It's not Westlife. 

And worse off, my senior brother is in the group. Fuck this shit. 

How did you protest against that? 

Nigga, let me tell you the truth. Nobody can dispute this. I am the engine of music, I am the producer, I am the music. When I left, the only thing Chocolate City could do was hold on to the album. They couldn't send me to court. I go scatter them. And I don't even have their time now. I'm waiting make the album get egg first, then I go carry the whole nation come for you. This is a threat. 

I'm going to take that seriously. Referencing, your Kwararafa people were invading. They have recorded successful invasions of Hausa land, specifically against Kano around 1600, and the middle of the century. In the 1670s, the Kwararafa assaulted Katsina, sacked Zaria, and launched an invasion on —. You people are such a vicious band.

Let me shock you. Are you ready? Google Taraba State on Wikipedia. Go to popular personalities on that Google list. Open it. Who's number one? 

Aisha Jumai.

Who's number two?

Emmanuel Bwacha

Who's number three? 

Theophilus Danjuma. 

Who's number four? 

Darius Ishaku.

Who's number five?

Saleh Mamman.

Who's number six?

Mahmud Mohammed.

Now, this has been updated because of politics. Who is number seven?

Jolly Nyame

Who's number eight? 

Danbaba Suntai.

Nine? 

Yusuf Abubakar Yusuf.

Ten? 

Shuaibu Isa Lau.

Now, nobody knows these fuckers. 11? 

That's all.

That's all? This is a fake list. Check again on Wikipedia. This has been changed, and you know it can be. There are only two people from Taraba. Jude Abaga and Jesse Abaga. 

I want to change it now. 

Check. It'll open my phone, you go see am. Now, these politicians have come again. Wikipedia pages can be changed. 

A lot of edits happen.

So, they've added their names. I don't know all those people. They didn't do anything for the state. Taraba State has only one college and one round-about, and one town, Jalingo, and one hotel, Jalingo Hotel, wey the ceiling dey fall from top. Lizard go dey sleep with you for room. Agama lizard o, no be normal lizard. 

So, in all of this, and I'd like this to be the final question, you came into this world as Jesse Abaga, and over time, what you have given to the world has brought you prestige, what you've given to the world has brought you a multitude of gifts, purpose, has blessed you and your family, has blessed everyone who has been in contact with, but at the end of the day, what's most important to you? When it all boils down, what is this for you? 

Baba, I follow The Prophet. There's no greater love than for a man to lay down his life for his friend. There's nothing greater than it. I'm here to experience this life myself. If I wasn't here, this world wouldn't be here. If I wasn't this born, all this wouldn't matter to me. It's only here because I'm here. 

That's a great perspective to have. 

It's only here because you are here Joey. It is inside you, sir. It is you. When they say No, they are just telling you Yes. When people say Yes, they might be sycophants, 90% of them. But you are just here as a human. Make your mistakes, get your glories, laugh, live, shit, fuck, eat. That's life. 

We only know what is present. 

Don't get a house that is bigger than you. 

Why? 

Baba, even if na your mattress na this whole hotel room wey you dey, na one place you go sleep nau. How many cars can you drive at once? 

I just have one car. 

Torh. How many prick you get? 

I want to grow another. I saw one guy advertise something that I can rub on my side and grow a new dick. He shouted it at the market, so I'm going to buy it.

Boom. 

Don't do this o, please. Na joke o. 

Shout-out to Joey. Thank you so much. I'm so honored. 

Thank you for inviting me to your city. 

And I hope Jos has made a good impression on you. 

I love Jos. 

You need to go to KD. Kaduna is fly. 

I will. If something takes me to KD, I'll go. I don't mind going to where it is. I even appreciate this, because this is a break in my normal life. There's probably somewhere I'll go and drink this evening. Thank you so much for the work you have done, the work you are doing, and the work you continue to do. Thank you for showing us that it's important that mastery of self and mastery of your art leads to a greater reward, both the tangibles and intangibles. But overall, you are better putting in the work.

If you are not growing, nothing is going to work.

Thank you for putting in the work and showing us this. Blessings, brother.